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Post by Cyrus on Feb 6, 2004 2:46:38 GMT
Here's the trailer for those who haven't seen it. I taped it off my  because I hadn't found one online anywhere yet, so sorry for the lack of quality. But something is better than nothing, at least until the WB posts their better one... For your use only, not to be posted on other sites, blah, blah...  Right click link and choose save target as... Angel episode 05-13: Why We Fight - trailer |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 10, 2004 14:55:05 GMT
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 11, 2004 21:59:11 GMT
www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=16996
Herc’s Seen ANGEL 101!!
I am – Hercules!!
Angel 5.13 FAQ
What’s it called?
“Why We Fight.”
Who’s responsible?
Teleplay is credited to Drew Goddard and Steve DeKnight.
What did Coax say about this one back on Jan. 21?
“During World War II (long before Maggie Walsh was born) a “government initiative” recruits Angel for a World War II submarine mission (where he runs into another former “Buffy” regular).”
Huh. What does Guide say?
“When a face from his past shows up at Wolfram & Hart, flashbacks reveal Angel's role in salvaging a damaged WWII sub carrying crucial technology---and vampire prisoners. But Angel's visitor doesn't want to reminisce; he's looking to settle an old score. Lawson: Eyal Podell. Hodge: Matt Goodwin. Spinelli: Nick Spano.”
Any reference to the late Cordelia Chase this week?
Zero. None. Though other events of the prior ‘sode are alluded to.
Where’s Eve?
“Tactical swept her hangouts, and our locators ran through their usual voodoo,” notes Charles Gunn. “Each came back with the same result: Eve has vanished.”
Is Eve in hiding from the senior partners now?
“The senior partners don't take betrayal lightly,” notes one member of Team Angel. “Yeah, well, gotta figure they whisked her up shortly after they nabbed the scheming prince,” theorizes another.
What old score does Angel’s visitor wish to settle?
Angel sired him 60 years ago. Which, when you think hard about it, makes the visitor (his nanme is Lawson) a wholly unique member of the Buffiverse.
The big news?
Spike sports a hitherto unseen look this week. Its reveal is easily one of the most gratifying moments of the hour.
The bigger news?
It’s a government “demon research initiative” that recruits Angel, and in 1943 appears to be brand spanking new. There’s no reason to believe this is not the same body that bedeviled Buffy Summers four years ago. And, given its long secret history, more than a few viewers may posit that the Initiative probably didn’t exactly close down after it fled Sunnydale.
What else is Guide not telling us?
Take away the flashbacks and an epilogue with Spike, and this episode is basically one long scene.
Has Spike signed on with Team Angel?
No. It’s fairly clear that he’s still operating apart from the firm.
What’s good?
The War Department’s version of the Iniative is a hoot, as is the Fury-esque (Nick, that is, not David) officer who seems to oversee it. It’s fun to watch the clueless sub crew react to all the big weirdness. And it’s surprising compelling to see how effortlessly Angel seems to adapt to military culture; his management style aboard the sub (and there is much to manage down there) stands in marked contrast to his more laid-back approaches to Wolfram and Angel Investigations. Amusing also are the three very different vampires the Nazis are transporting.
What’s not so good?
The first time we see a youthful Lawson at the firm, his vampire status is easy to guess, and some may also find it a little to easy to guess the reason for his transformation. As a result, Angel’s big decision in the last act doesn’t manifest much of a reveal, and the episode kind of needs one there.
How does it end, spoiler-boy?
“Then what was he looking for?” asks Spike. “A reason,” replies Angel.
Herc’s rating for “Angel” 5.13?
***1/2
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 11, 2004 22:10:56 GMT
Dive dive dive!! Wildfeed's up - www.angelsacolyte.com/I may be gone some time.... Aha, I see they are grooming Knox for his imminent death by trashing his work! And Spike is just.... priceless! Brilliant! Free Vrgin Blood Party! ;D "One minute I'm asking a fella why all the virgins look like Goebbels, the next minute I'm stuck in a box on this cursed ship." "Anybody here read Nazi?" Rofl! No real surprises here, we are too thoroughly spoiled! But I think I am looking forward to it, even though they are making Spike pretty silly, and they are rewriting canon a little with the souled vamp siring being different to your average. I mean, Spike vamped a whole bunch of folks after being souled, thanks to the dear old First. And although Holden was kinda quirky, the others weren't. You could say the ones who clawed their way up out fo the cellar didn't have time to develop any social skills, but then there was that female at the Bronze. She was a bog standard vamp alright. |
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Post by Incogni2 on Feb 12, 2004 4:05:02 GMT
First impressions...it was ok. Another stand alone...as described, only continuity was mentioning the vanishing of Eve. I wonder if the rest of the cast is tired of their bitty parts? Lorne was hardly even there. And other than making Spike's hair black, couldn't they come up with another doo? Not that I was around in the 40's, but was punk in then? Did make him look as the archtypical of Naziness I guess...  The trailer was funny...Angel turning into a muppet and Spike rolling around on the floor with him and laughing his off. |
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Post by Cyrus on Feb 12, 2004 4:35:02 GMT
I'm writing bits and pieces while watching the ep as it airs. So this may make sense, but most likely will not... Spike made his first appearance 18 minutes into the show... in a Nazi uniform and black hair...  Angel opens door, Spike: "They'll let anyone in here, won't they?" Spike was captured at a "Free Virgin Blood Party" by the Initiative. Why was Spike wearing the duster? He got it in 1977, and this was 1943. At least I think it was the duster... very similar anyway. Spike did the "Hail Hitler" thing... there's going to be many discussions on forums over that... Lawson said something about "those two" being in the SS... "Spikes not in the SS. He just likes wearing the jacket." -- Angel EuroTrip commercial featuring MT in the bikini of course I want to be called Captain. --Spike I'll meanace you talke. --Spike Angel siring Lawson... fuel for slash fic! ;D OMFG! I think Spike said the word "dick" on ! ;D Spike to Angel: "You're still a dick." Angel motions for Spike to climb out of the sub and swim to shore before sunrise. Spike: "Oh bollocks!" I'll have to rewatch that last part later. Lawson re a soul: "Do I have one too?" Angel: "I don't htink it works that way, son." *Lawson go poof* I'm now ROTFLMFAO and coughing from laughing at the promo! Spike is grinning and laughing as he's literally rolling around on the floor holding PuppetAngel! ;D ;D ;D Ooh now it's time for COPS! ;D But I'm going to rewind my tape and film the promo for you Brit ladies to have a laugh at!  Okay, now this is driving me crazy. My sister has been on the phone for over an hour and 45 minutes, so I can't get online and post this stuff, and Phillip is supposed to call any minute... grr... :x **trailer and a special bonus coming later after I get them uploaded**Videos by Cyrus... not to be posted elsewhere, etc. Smile Time trailer... bloody funny! Bonus coming soon... |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 12, 2004 11:23:00 GMT
No, he took it off a German he ate! The Heil Hitler was meant to be ironic, but yeah, that will sail over the Spike haters heads and they'll have a high old time with it! He did later "sing" our National Anthem *snerk* So, does the word dick not normally make it on to your ? I didn't think it was worthy of mention when I was commenting on the wildfeed! I shall be waiting very impatiently for the downloads to be ready! |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 12, 2004 12:20:52 GMT
www.entertainment-geekly.com/web/general/feb2004/Angel_1943
Angel, "Why We Fight"
Captain! Clichés! Dead Ahead!
By Anthony Karcz
February 11, 2004
What's more cliché than yet another Angel vs. Spike episode, you might ask? Why putting them in a World War II setting and having Angel be an Allied operative and Spike be a Nazi, of course. OK, OK, so Spike isn't exactly a Nazi — he just likes eating them — but the cliché meter for "Why We Fight" is still maxed at 11.
We start out with your standard there's something eeevil on this ship bit. Farm-boy Comm operator radios for help, yada, yada, the Captain dies valiantly, yackity, schmackity, Plucky First Mate tries to save him, blah, blah, blood flies...and I find myself glancing at my watch, wondering if I really have to sit through another hour of this.
Cut to W&H where we get to see what the Angel Inc. crew does when they aren't dealing with demonic civil wars or parasite-induced visions — they work too hard. Actually we do get a bit of arc-a-licious information here as we find out that Eve has vanished and all conduits to the Sr. Partners have shut down. Even more interesting is Gunn's apparent memory lapse when it comes to contacting the Partners. Is this a hint of Gunn's mojo wearing off? Does he have a blind spot when it comes to contacting them? Or is it something a little more active on the Sr. Partner's part — are they manipulating the info that Gunn's got knocking around in his noggin? It's telling that this two second tidbit warrants more attention and speculation than the rest of the episode.
So Plucky First Mate (Let's call him Lawson, shall we?) shows up and does the kind-but-creepy bit with Fred. He then cold-cocks Wes and goes to pay Angel a visit.
But first, let's have a little lesson, shall we? (Since they conveniently left the Cliffs Notes out of this week's ep.)
Early on, waaay back in Season 1 (and in BUFFY too, I might add), we learned a little bit about Angel's past. Once he got his soul, he wandered, he was a wreck, he lived in the gutters. Buffy was the only reason that he was able to pull himself together and become the vamp that he is.
So imagine my surprise when we have a clean-cut (although brooding and bored) Angel whiling his time away in a little circa-1943 flat. Now I don't mind the occasional retcon; but you better give me something damn good in exchange. Unfortunately, we don't get that here. What we do get is a cookie-cutter colonel (or general or whatever) blathering on about a mission that only Angel can do. It's the typical "We know you don't give a shit about what we're doing, but we're going to force you to do it anyway because we're the Big Scary Government." shtick that has launched many a B-Grade plot. Only of slight interest is the mention of the organization they're working for — a newly-formed department called the Demon Initiative (a nice bone for you BUFFY-buffs; only thing that would've been better is if the guy had been called Finn.).
Back on the ship we get the tense showdown between Lawson who, gosh-darn-it, just wants to save him some people, and a random crew member with a gun. They're interrupted by the arrival of Angel. Question — vampire strength or not, is it even mechanically possible to open and close a torpedo tube manually from the outside? I mean, your asking me to choke down a retcon and suspend my disbelief of the laws of physics all at the same time? Tall order. Angel shows up, starts barking orders (much like 2004 Angel...not a whit like 1943 Angel) and goes off to recover the ship. But before he can, he comes face-to-face with yet another convenient plot twist — Spike.
There's a brief moment of amusement as we get a load of the other vamps — Rasputin's lover and a Nosferatu knock-off — but that quickly sours as Angel takes charge. We get shots of the farm boy gawking at the dead bodies and lectures from Plucky First Mate Lawson about purpose and meaning. Then, in the present, just as Angel is about to dust Lawson (who is, of course, a vamp), he hints that he has an ace in the hole. This "ace in the hole" turns out to be Wes, Gunn, and Fred standing on office chairs with piano wire nooses around their necks.
Excuse me? This was his ace in the hole? Couldn't Angel have, oh, I don't know, dusted Lawson, then gone downstairs with a pair of scissors and cut the gang down? What a grand and evil scheme Vampire Lawson contrived. Good to know that he spent decades tracking Angel and this was the best he could come up with.
The tired plot bucket is dipped into a few more times as we get Germans experimenting on vamps, Lawson trying to save the day (before getting killed by the sole German that no one kept an eye on), Angel turning Lawson to save the mission, and then shuffling Lawson and Spike off the boat to make a swim for shore (since Lawson is, of course, a barely controllable neophyte).
The present-day storyline doesn't fare much better. We get Lawson babbling about his need for a purpose, his inability to feel anything about the evil he's perpetuated (oh boo-hoo Plucky First Mate got a bit of soul in the bargain — well stop whining, you asked Angel to do it), and then the inevitable dusting. The writers try to salvage things in the end by having another Spike & Angel moment; but even its "he was looking for a reason" revelation falls flat since we never really cared about Lawson in the first place and we already know that Angel's looking for a reason (and, um, didn't he kind of find it already last week? Isn't anyone paying attention to these things?).
It's a piss-poor episode. After last week's brilliance, I certainly wasn't expecting to be wowed; but this is just a smack in the face. I can only hope next week's gimmicky puppet-fest (penned by director, producer, and Tick creator, Ben Edlund) will fare better.
Ooops, oh dear! Have to say though, that Angel was all clean cut and brooding alone in 1952, so it isn't THAT much of a stretch to have him likewise in 1943.....
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Post by Cyrus on Feb 12, 2004 14:21:37 GMT
No, he took it off a German he ate! Oh okay... I must have missed that... Wonder why he didn't keep it? He could've ripped off the symbols... PK said Not that I know of... many times it'll be beeped out, depending on what channel and show it is. For example, in the movie "10 Things I Hate About You" when shown on , has those scenes with that word redone. And it's certainly never shown up coming out of Spike's mouth(!) or anyone else's on Buffy or Angel... Writers trying to compete with stuff like "One Tree Hill"?  Whyever it was there, it's always fascinating to hear Spike/James say stuff like that... I just have a thing about it... ;D Oh and BTW, that part is the "bonus" I was going to include last night... had trouble uploading it, and then I figure out this morning that I'm out of space on my one site... had to stick it somewhere else... Video by Cyrus... not to be posted elsewhere... Spike calling Angel a dick ;D The picture is kind of red and stuff but that's the way it looked because of the lighting on the sub. |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 12, 2004 19:32:31 GMT
He told Angel, when the Big A said he was a Nazi, didn't he? And then Angel refered to it later when he said no Spike wasn't a Nazi, he just liked the jacket.
Dick is a hugely appropriate word to use towards Angel! ;D And something Spike should be saying all the time in the present day.... but.... was it really in common use in the 40s?! The jury is out!
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slaybelle74
Mitch Brand
one by one the penquins steal my sanity
Posts: 250
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Post by slaybelle74 on Feb 13, 2004 3:37:25 GMT
wasn't too impressed by this episode...and is it called 1943 or why we fight?....listed on the wb network as 1943.and i did not like the black hair on james  best thing about this episode was the previews for smile time next week ;D |
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Snow
Billy Johnson
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Post by Snow on Feb 13, 2004 16:20:44 GMT
 I only wanted to state that not all german girls look like Goebbels!!! Well, maybe those who attend free virgin blood parties... ;D ;D ;D I guess there really was quite a bunch of stuff in the episode that didn't make much sense but overall it was still enjoyable. That Lawson guy looked kinda nice. Plus he spoke better german than the guy who played Heinrich ;D. I didn't really get that whole thing about Lawson keeping "a little bit" of his soul - well, of his humanity anyway - because he was sired by souled Angel. On the other hand it could explain why Spike was always different from other vampires - Drusilla wasn't exactly a normal vamp either.
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 13, 2004 19:07:14 GMT
But neither Dru nor Spike were sired by a souled vamp. I think we just aren't meant to remember BtVS! Or leastways, only at the writers' 'discretion'. At last! I am starting to download right now... |
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Post by willowwood on Feb 13, 2004 20:55:18 GMT
Hey all just thought i'd come and throw in my two pence or what ever the saying is ;D
Well i thought this episode was great, James was brilliant and again showed his talent for delivering the funny lines, and i especially liked the way in which Spike insisted on being called Capatin and Angels assurance that he wasn't in the SS but just liked wearng the jacket lmao. Angel looked gorgeous in the black polo neck, but i don't think the black hair did anything for James and made him look like spock lol. The interaction between the two of them was classic as per usual. Lawson was a cutie, who grew on me throughout the episode although i got a bit worried as to how close he came to the chairs on which Gunn, Fred and Wes were standing on (twistie assures me i an be spoilery in here) at points during the fight scene. Camden Toy was brilliant as the Prince of Lies and really made the role memorable, as he always does. Also the mention of the demon 'initiative' was a good link into Buffy for all the fans who have moved across that really stood out to me.
One other thing, it would have been interestin to know where Dru was last seen, or what she was up to whilst all this was goin on.
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 13, 2004 21:28:44 GMT
Presumably still at the party, drinking on young virgin blood |
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Post by Cyrus on Feb 13, 2004 21:49:45 GMT
Hmmm wonder if I could lure in Spike with some... ;D |
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Post by willowwood on Feb 13, 2004 22:04:26 GMT
Presumably still at the party, drinking on young virgin blood Yeah Pk, i thought that but if so why didn't the Germans capture her to put on the boat aswell after all they were after the badest of the bad and well Dru is considered a higher vampire than our Spike, i can see the fact that they may not have wanted Women to do it but surely she wouldn't have let them take Spike without a fight, and a few bodies in return. |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 13, 2004 23:34:09 GMT
I wouldn't want to capture her for the experiments - mad as a bleeding hatter! The Nazis weren't too keen on imperfect specimens.... And WHO considers her a higher vampire than Spike? They are all descended from the Master, afterall. Anyway, seriously, we aren't expected to ask awkward questions like that. The writers didn't think about her, so therefore she wasn't mentioned. Just like Cordy didn't get a mention, although she only just croaked it.... It's shoddy workmanship, and I kinda expect better from the Golden Boys (DeK and DG). But they were too busy writing in-jokes (Petrie and Fury). I should shut my mouth actually, coz I haven't seen it yet. Tomorrow, I shall return and vent! |
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Snow
Billy Johnson
Posts: 173
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Post by Snow on Feb 14, 2004 7:10:49 GMT
Looking forward to that. ;D (Do I like this smilie or what?)I agree with Wills, I adored the Prince of Lies, loved the captain thing, and Spikes interaction with Angel was fun, too. Though I wondered a bit how fast he accepted Angel as the boss. She should have gotten along fine with half of the Nazi gouvernement then... Why Dru wasn't there... well - maybe Spike didn't exactly tell Dru about the "virgin's blood party" and went on his own? Dru could get jealous on occasion, couldn't she? Maybe he assumed she wouldn't like the idea of him feeding on all those pretty young Goebbels-looking girls and just sneaked out? And all the while Dru was still in Berlin or whereever Spike was caught, torturing some SS guys for information while telling them what the moon had sung to her? -- Okay, okay, continuity be damned. There's no logical explanation to half of the episode. It's probably an AU episode . - What was Lawson's plan when he came to W&H? Why would he capture Fred, Wes and Gunn and then go see Angel who could easily have killed him first, then gone down to free the others? - Why was Angel suddenly all about the "mission" when he obviously didn't care about the war both before and after the submarine episode? Is there something about subs that suddenly turns guys into "Captain America" as soon as they enter it? Or was he so keen on having scientists research his fellow creatures of the night? - Why didn't Angel simply stake Spike and the other vamps on sight, free the crew and bring the ship home? - How DO they take over submarines anyway? - What was Heinrich trying to achieve by killing Lawson? Alright, he's an evil Nazi SS guy and all, I get it, but I expect even those people have an instinct of selfpreservation and need a reason for what they do? And why was he upset when Spike burned the papers? Shouldn't he have been glad to see them go? He was captured on his way to the US, those were top secret research results, and he wanted the enemies to get them (who he knew exactly were working on the same thing)? I mean, isn't this usually the point when those creepy guys start to eat paper just to make sure nobody gets to see what's written on it? - What was the point of the episode anyway? (Maybe that's the question Lawson wanted the answer to.) It's a good thing I don't care much for logic or continuity, otherwise I'd probably be disappointed. ;D |
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Post by PokerKitten on Feb 14, 2004 16:37:22 GMT
Okay, I just watched it and decided not to overhtink it, especially in light of recent news. We have to take what we can get, right?! Going to respond to Snow first... Spike said it was in Madrid; so she was probably eating flamenco dancers... Yeah, but Angel had no idea what he had done at the time so he couldn't risk killing him straight off, could he? But agree it was a fairly lame plan of Lawson's... but then he wasn't really into the evil, was he? That may be as fiendish a plan as he cared to come up with. I think as he was down there he just went along with what he'd been told to do, because although at that time he lacked a reason for being, he wasn't out to see folks die, being all soulboyish. And hey, he didn't exactly go along with everything did he... he let his family go, afterall. And killing the other vamps, and letting Spike burn the documents says to me that no, he didn't want the Americans to get hold of the research or the specimens either. He was trying to prevent the Americans escaping, wasn't he, and with Nazi hardware and technology at that - he was into the "mission". As Lawson said, they all would be willing to die for their country. Heinrich was no different, knowing that killing their only hope of getting the sub going forwards and up would get him killed too would actually be serving his country. Was he or was it Spike's appalling singing? LMAO! Oh, you know, I didn't mind this ep really. I thought the direction and editing were pretty good and it did keep my interest throughout - and for the record, I dislike militarism, flagwaving and so forth, avoid WWII movies and documentaries etc so I was a pretty tough audience! But I think the characters were what interested me, and the stuff they were going through/working out could have been transposed to other situations and periods in time quite easily, so the setting wasn't all that important to me in the end. But what makes me sad in light of the cancellation is that eps like this, and Unleashed, and HW, have taken up valuable time which could have been better used to develop existing characters, deal with the past and give us something wow and organic for what we have left. The eps from 15 onwards will be dealing with all that, but kinda late in the day for me I'm afraid. Anyway, just a few more comments, probably fairly shallow! I didn't mind Spike's hair... and you know what, it seemed just like Data's (and hey, that is of the good!). Lawson was phwoar! And an excellent actor too. Very appealing all round! Spike was pretty silly in parts but his characterisation wasn't as awful as I had feared from the spoiler info. And the guy was bored and wanted to play! Fair enough. 1940s Angel seemed quite fond of him, really.... And Angel brooding in his vest was what he does best, so it was fun to see that at the start! The Prince of Lies was delightfully camp and old school stereotypical - good old Camden Toy! A couple of lines that made me snort, in a good way, was Gunn talking about Lindsey probably "boiling in his own filth", and Spike saying "I'm playing nice with the anchovies.." And I think what I took most from this ep was that Lawson always had a strong moral viewpoint and although he had despised the military types and the Yes Sir stuff before, the vile things going on in the world drove him to stand up and be counted. And if that meant joining the Yes Men, than so be it. He had a job to get done. And as the blood dried in his throat thoughout his vampire career, he was still that guy deep down, just as Spike was always the lover and the poet, and Angelus was always the dissolute shit... I really felt for Lawson.... And I'm not going to dwell on what I didn't like, not this time. |
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